ANA: Hey everybody. You’re listening to Mosaic. I’m Ana González. It’s hard to talk about religion. It really is. It’s even harder to find a way to be critical of it, especially when you grew up in a tradition that’s deeply connected to your race and cultural identity. But playwright and director Don Mays has managed to create a space for an examination of Christianity in Black families with his 12-part audio play, God Talks To An Agnostic. Today on Mosaic: a conversation with Don Mays.

ANA: Don, thanks so much for being here.

DON: Thanks for having me

ANA: Yeah, so where did the idea of God Talks to An Agnostic come from?

DON: Actually, there are a number of sources that kind of brought this all together. Originally, I've always had some concerns with religion and how religion has played out in the Black community, especially. How religion has often been used as a weapon in the Black community. It was used to justify slavery. It's gone into Black and brown countries and decimated cultures and stripped Black and brown folks have their own religions and kind of replaced Western religion. And on a more personal level, how it has impacted my family in ways that – well, I mean, it's impacted a lot of families – in ways that have cost both monetarily and time and energy and that kind of thing.

ANA: When you talk about religion, are you just talking about Christianity or more broadly?

DON: Christianity is the only one that I'm familiar with. But my understanding is religion kind of plays itself out in the same ways around the globe. And I don't want to suggest that I'm knocking religion completely. It's just that there are ways in which religion is used that I think are detrimental to people. And sometimes, you know, people are sucked into things that cause them to do things that are against their own best interest.

ANA: Were you raised in a particularly strict religious tradition?

DON: Southern Black Baptist. Yes, indeed.

ANA: Whereabouts?

DON: St. Louis. I grew up in St. Louis County.

ANA: How strict was your family's connection to their religion?

DON: I wouldn't call it strict but we definitely followed the religion. My family followed the religion very closely and many of my family members still do. Most do.

ANA: Yeah, well, I'm wondering exactly from your experience what kind of detrimental impacts has religion had? From what you've seen either in your family or just more broadly in Black culture and American culture?

DON: One of the most egregious uses is what they're now calling “prosperity religions,” where folks give money that they can't afford to lose, they give money to religious “leaders” and are told that “If you give me your money, then God will give you money or give you prosperity down the line.” Which, you know, folks who can't afford to give up a dime or, can't afford to give up money that they should be using for their own survival, they’re giving it to these these folks who are “religious leaders,” and you know, who are getting rich off of these poor people. And that's the thing that's most upsetting to me. You know, poor people are funding these “prosperity religions”.

ANA: So, what kind of denominations are those? From your experience, what are those sects?

DON: I have some very choice words for them, but I can't use them on the radio. But I'm like the evangelicals, although those Christian ministries that you see on TV, the ones who are those mega churches, and I don't know what denomination they claim to be, but their main denomination is, you know, the dollar bill. If you ask me.

ANA: In this clip from episode 2, we hear “The Agnostic”, played by Don Mays, talking with his sister, Addie, played by Jackie Davis.

MUSIC/CLIP PLAYS

Addie: What happened?

Agnostic: What do you mean?

Addie: Why are you so against church? What turned you away?

Agnostic: You.

Addie: Me?!

Agnostic: Yes, you.

Addie: don’t be trying to put that on me. How did I turn you away?

Agnostic: wel,, it wasn’t just you, but you put the nail in the coffin. Turn me away for good.

Addie: What are you even talking about?

Agnostic: You know I’ve had issues with religion for a long time for a bunch of different reasons. From how they justified slavery to the crusades. Throughout time, religion has been used as a weapon –

Addie: So why can’t you see all the good? What about the service work? The missionary work?

Agnostic: Missionary work? You mean the devastation of entire cultures in the name of religion: that missionary work? The colonization of the entire African continent was aided by missionary work.

Addie: Yes, that did happen.

Agnostic: Yes, that DID happen.

Addie: But come on. That’s not all. All missionary work has not been bad. What people are doing nowadays is truly coming from grace. It’s truly God’s work. People are making amazing sacrifices to help others, to save lives.

Agnostic: Yes! People. Not the Church.

Addie: The people are the Church.

Agnostic: But is the Church the people?

Addie: What? Yes!

Agnostic: No, not always. In fact, far too often, it is not.

Addie: What are you talking about? Why can’t you just see the good that’s out there?

MUSIC

ANA: When you listen to all these episodes of God Talks to An Agnostic, it's so intimate. Like, it's either just us speaking or it's you having these one on one conversations, like a phone call with your sister or in bed with somebody. And then in those conversations, you talk about these big themes and ideas. Could you explain who these characters are and kind of how they relate to the bigger themes?

DON: Yeah, actually, that's a very good question. And the reason that it was written like that, written like this there, it's twofold. One is that if you have a bunch of characters, you have to kind of explain all the different characters or the audience, we have to guess who's speaking at what time. So keeping it intimate between one one or 212 or three characters, I think helps, that allows the audience to get into the conversation without wondering who is speaking. So I wanted to have that comfort and comfort level and ease for the audience. The other piece is that the characters are connected to The Agnostic all in different ways. So his sister who is his twin, she is kind of the Yin of his Yang. So they're kind of two parts of a ho,le. And the conversations that they have are, or the, the ways in which they interact with each other are, I think, as close as siblings can get. She is staunchly religious and has followed religion throughout her life. And he has strayed away from that tight connection with religion. So the conversations that they have, they can have, you know, opposite ends of the spectrum, and still keep that civil, that sibling connection there, that allows them to really go hard at each other. But always know that at the end of the day, like Addie says, they hug it out. And it's all good.

Obviously, the connection with his mother, she wants the best for him. She wants him to find his way. She wants him to be successful. But she also wants his soul to be saved, you know, you want salvation for him. And you know, she has that kind of mother's concern. And in that, they can address, I think, bigger life issues: How one pursues one's life, how one pursues one's love, or runs away, as she suggests he does.

And his brother having had worldly experiences or experiences away from the Church, and finding his way back to the Church, I think affords conversations about people's path to and from religion. And the things that are important enough for them to kind of move back and find that thing that they can fall back on to to give them the peace of mind, stability that they need.

I don't know if we've been introduced to the girlfriend yet. But she is from a very spiritual place. And, you know, he says that he's neither religious nor spiritual. He's very concrete: one and one is two. And she's very much not that. So one of the things that I learned way back when I first started writing is that in order to create drama, you want to have people who have as far opposing opinions or opposing ideas as possible, and bring them together. And in doing that, you're going to get these big conversations. You're going to be able to get at these intimate points, but also, you're going to be able to get at the macro and the micro.

ANA: Yeah, I can hear that and the nuances and kind of like the gray areas and the overlapping parts, definitely. Because not one truth is ever totally the truth.

DON: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And, and he, you know, struggling with this is new to him, which is also, I think, a key part of it. Because he was very sure, although he didn't fully acknowledge it, but he is very sure that his way of thinking and seeing the world was the right way, because it was that concrete A + B = C. But now he's he's being been put in a position where he has to question everything that he has known and understood throughout his adult life. And I think that that affords us the opportunity to examine, again, both macro and micro ideas and ideologies and issues that are both current and historic.

ANA: Here’s an excerpt from “God Talks to an Agnostic.” It starts with the agnostic talking with his girlfriend Robin Baxter played by Daraja Hinds.

ROBIN: Why can’t you think beyond what you can see, touch, feel? Why can’t there be more?

AGNOSTIC: Why should there be?

Robin: Because there is. Just because you can't see, touch or feel it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Because you can’t see God means there is no God?

Agnostic: No, I mean yes. I mean –

Robin: What?

Agnostic: I’m not saying there is no God.

Robin: What the hell you talking about? That’s all you’ve ever said you’re whole life! That’s all you’ve ever said.

Agnostic: No, no that’s not what I said. It’s not! I said I wanted proof. Something tangible.

Robin: So, God has to walk up to you, shake your hand, and say, “Hi, I’m God. Pleased to meet you. Now you can believe, ok?”

Agnostic: Yes! Kinda.

Robin: You’re an ass****.

Agnostic: Yes. Kinda.

Robin: [Laughs] I can’t stand you. So, why would God even waste time talking to you?

Agnostic: I don’t know. That’;s the first thing I asked.

Robin: Asked who?

Agnostic: God.

Robin: What?

Agnostic: I asked “Why me?”

Robin: You asked who?

Agnostic: God!

Robin: You’re trying to tell me you talked to God?

Agnostic: Yes!

Robin: Talked? Like actually talked talked?

Agnostic: Yes.

Robin: When?

Agnostic: This morning. In the rain.

Robin: You talked to God in the rain? What’d He say? Why are you shaking your head?

Agnostic: Not He. She.

ANA: I'm assuming by listening to the audio play, and you voicing the main character that a lot of this is kind of like your own internal monologue? Is that true? Or is it kind of like it's more of an exploration into, like, a thought?

DON: We'll go with B.

DON: Personally yes, I have always questioned religion and I've had problems with the way it has played out, like I said earlier. But a lot of it is fictionalized in that it pushes the point I think more than I ever have in real life. And I think that character has a much tighter bond, much tighter grip on his stance as an agnostic. I don't think I put, I don't think I, personally, put as much energy into it as this person does. The Agnostic does.

ANA: Well, I do love, also the relationships and the play and how they play out, like the main character and his sister and his mother, and also this voice of a very female-sounding God that he interacts with. So I'm wondering, was that a conscious choice to make the majority, if not all of the other voices, at least that I've heard so far, women?

DON: No. The voices that are women are characters that have to be No, there was no choice to make it majority women. This is just how the the the characters being introduced, as the as the series goes along, you're going to be introduced to more male characters who have, I think, equally prominent roles as the women that you hear well, except for God.

ANA: Right. So yeah. Was that a conscious choice, making God a female voice?

DON: How could God not be female? Seriously, how could God, how could God not be female?

ANA: That's a good question. I have the same question.

DON: Yeah. Thank you. She knows what's up

ANA: So that brings up this idea, though, of like, and we've talked about this, like examining our religions and interrogating them. Was part of your purpose of writing this like to bring up certain conversations that you think aren't being had?

DON: It is intentionally provocative. Absolutely. I think we should very much examine religion and how it has played out in people's personal lives, in their communities in the world in general. You know, how can these religious institutions be so incredibly wealthy, and have so many people who are following them be poverty stricken? I won't call out any religions, per se. I won't call out any religions by name. But, you know, one of the richest countries in the world is built around a religion and their followers all around the world who, who are living in abject poverty. And, then again, so many religious leaders are, I've gotta stop using that word “religious leaders”. So many people who form religions are extremely wealthy. There's a reference in the play. You know, I remember all the preachers that I knew drove really nice cars or cars that indicated status. Why is that? You know? Why would the people who are at the head of the church be better off than those who are following? I don't think that was the idea of Christ. I don't think that's what, how Christ saw the world or lived his life. You know? Actually, we all know that's exactly not how he did, not what he preached or taught.

ANA: So obviously, we have all had to adapt to COVID-19. And this is an audio play in lieu of a live performance. Are some things that had to change for this to work on the radio?

DON: Absolutely. One of the things that, and I'm really grateful to be working with the Wilbury Theatre Group, is that we recognize that we're not going to be able to do live performances. We're not going to be able to have actors communicating and performing as they do, pre COVID. As well as, we're not going to be able to have live audiences. So I was thinking: how can we still create material, create products that are new, engaging, provocative, employing actors and musicians and tech folks, during COVID? And doing it in a way that's going to be safe.

And you know, going to going into a studio where there's, you know, we can either do safe social distancing, where we're in a very large room space at the Waterfire Center, where actors can be where I think 14 to 15 feet apart, wearing masks when we're not on the mics. So, doing all the COVID restrictions, or in a single booth by ourselves, you know, as we are recording this, this interview now.

So in order to do something that's going to be safe, but also interesting and engaging and provocative, I came up with the idea of doing this piece as an audio play. And it's not like just not reading a play that was written for the stage on the radio or, or in a recording booth. This piece was designed to be specifically an audio recorded piece. So that the imagery is– we're harkening back to the old days of the old radio plays, the old radio dramas, where you have to, dare I say, use your imagination to fill in the gaps. I intentionally wrote this so that it would spark visual images for folks. So as you're listening to what I'm thinking, it was written so that as you listen to it, you can imagine the places and spaces that the scenes are occurring.

ANA: In this clip, we hear Mrs. Baxter, whose son was recently shot by a police officer. The scene takes place at a demonstration. Mrs. Baxter is played by Priscilla Bento and Don Mays is performing as The Agnostic.

[CLIP PLAYS]

ANA: One of the things that sticks out the most for me is the motif of rain and the sound of rain. And I have like a bunch of theories about what the rain represents or symbolizes. But do you want to explain a little bit? Or is that something for people's imaginations?

DON: Yeah, I don't know how much I want to get into it first. Because I think I wanted folks to kind of get their own opinions. I want it to unfold. I want it to unfold for the audience as they follow the series. So I don't think I want to get into it. I'd love to hear your theory. How it strikes you.

ANA: Well, yeah, I’ll let you keep your secrets. But, I mean to me, like, I think of the phrase “an act of God.” So I used to work in live music a little bit, and all the contracts say like, “this contract is good, unless there's an act of God.” And which means like a hurricane or a tornado, or a crazy thunderstorm that knocks out the electricity, those are considered an act of God, legally. And so when I think of rain in the title and the content, I think of like, it's a very constant rain, too, like the sound of it. So it's like this constant presence of some sort of higher power that the narrator is wrestling with.

DON: You're on point. You're spot on, spot on. No, there's more, there's more to it. And I think, you know, I've had conversations with folks who shared with me how it resonates with them. And some of the concepts are similar and some of them are very different and it hits people in very different ways. But the constant presence of rain and how people hear it, how people process it, I think all of those every way that a person kind of interacts with rain, I think they're able to do that with this piece.

[Audio clip from “God in the Rain”]

ANA CLIP OUTRO/RESET: You’re listening to Mosaic on The Public’s Radio, I’m Ana Gonzalez. You just heard an excerpt from “God Talks To An Agnostic” from the Wilbury Theatre Group. That was Rose Weaver as the voice of God. I talked with Don Mays who wrote the multi-part radio play and performs in the play as a nameless character known as just The Agnostic.

ANA: Also I'm interested in the ways in which you're talking a little bit historically and the ways in which, like, Western European religion has been forced on. I'm going back to like slavery, like on enslaved Africans and the ways in which those people had to either accept that religion or adapt to that religion. And so, how much of the history of kind of the colonization side of Christianity, how much of that is influencing your work?

DON: That's as much a part of it as anything. You know, the entire continent of Africa was colonized with the help of, of missionaries, and you know, folks going there who claiming to bring Western religion to African countries. The same thing happened in Central and South America. You know, all these Black and brown countries were invaded by missionaries bringing their Western civilization, their Western religions. And replacing and having the cultures replaced, whatever beliefs, rituals that they had before, with Western religions. And, in doing so that helped with the colonization of these, of these African countries.

And I remember, I was in college, my freshman year, I came home for the summer, and I saw this documentary, where it showed this Amazonian tribe that had been, existed, you know, untouched by Western civilization for centuries, existed on their own. They were doing fine. And missionaries came. And within two years, their entire culture was decimated. It no longer existed in the way it had existed for hundreds of years. And that to me, just was such a crime against humanity. So those are the kinds of things that influenced me, that helped to influence this piece. And like you, you mentioned, the use of religion to justify slavery. Certain passages in the Bible were used, and to hel make the enslaved Africans yield or succumb to the forces that were put upon them. And then there were passages that were word blocked from or they absolutely did not want these enslaved folks enslaved folks to see. So you know, it was used as a tool, a tool or a weapon to enslave black folks for centuries.

ANA: All right. Well, another thing that I want to talk about is that this piece comes after a year of pretty intense civil rights uprisings and also amidst the Derrick Chauvin trial for the murder of George Floyd like they're airing at the same time that the updates of this trial are airing. And the topic of police brutality is on so many people's minds. Did that idea and all of these historic events that are happening around us that have influenced your writing in any of these episodes,

DON: Absolutely. I intentionally wanted to make it addressing both historic and current, the historic and current situation of Black and brown folks in this country. So absolutely those things do come into play. And not necessarily looking at the church's response to those, because I think, you know, there are some religious folks who have really been key to movement or progress in the Black and brown communities. And they have been a vital part of the changes that have happened. So that's absolutely a part of it. But yeah, what I want us to be looking at how Black and brown communities are policed, how Black and brown communities are over-policed, I should say, and the response that the community has, and the response that politicians have. And you know, echoing the voices of those who say, “Change absolutely has to happen.”

ANA: That is interesting that there's this irony of religious organizations and people who are followers of certain religions being voices of progress and change and support. And at the same time, those very same institutions can sometimes be very stifling towards progress. And I hear that kind of conflict throughout these episodes, the irony of like, of not believing in something. And like, I think the way you put it in one of the episodes where it's like, “Am I clinging to my agnosticism as much as somebody who's religious is clinging to their religion?” And so I'm just wondering, how do you resolve that tension, either in yourself or in your work?

DON: Well, that was put in there to instigate conversations. Like I said, I want this piece to be provocative. I want folks who were listening to this to begin to have those conversations, to begin to ask those questions. You know, why am I holding on to Why am I so attentive to? Or why am I not at all attached to any religion or the religious doctrines of any number of the faces that are out there? If we're not questioning, I don't think we're growing. So you know, I want this to be something that causes people to think. I'm not asking people necessarily, I'm necessarily not asking people to change their way of thinking or change, you know, their attitudes are towards religion or even their faith. But I do think it's important for folks to have conversations about these things, you know, the roots of where religions, these religious doctrines come from and how they impact individuals, families, communities. If we're not having those these conversations, then why are we following or holding on to religion? Or holding on to our beliefs? If we're not always seeking a deeper understanding? Does that make sense?

ANA: Yeah, I think that makes sense.

DON: That's all that matters then, Ana. We're good to go. Boom, you got it. We're good to go.

[both laugh]

ANA: Don Mays, thank you so much for talking with us today.

DON: Thank you Ana, I appreciate you having me on.

ANA: The final episode of God Talks to An Agnostic airs this weekend on The Public’s Radio. You can listen to it as a podcast or stream all of the episodes online at thewilburygroup.org/agnostic.

Mosaic is a production of The Public’s Radio. Edited by Sally Eisele. Produced by James Baumgartner. Our theme music is by Bryn Bliska. Our intern is Michelle Liu. Torey Malatia is the general manager of The Public’s Radio. I’m Ana González. If you want to learn more about Mosaic, visit mosaicpodcast.org. See you next week.

Support for this podcast comes from the Carnegie Corporation of New York, supporting innovations in democratic engagement and international peace and security at carnegie.org.