EP.9
//SEASON 3

Hope All Is Well

Jon Hope creates music that represents his roots in Rhode Island and Africa. With his new album and a new educational initiative, Hope is moving beyond his past and helping others to realize a new future.
August 13, 2021

Episode Host(s)

Ana, Host of Mosaic
Ana González

ANA: Hey everybody. This is Ana González, and you’re listening to Mosaic. If you look at the Rhode Island flag, there’s only one word on it. Beneath the golden anchor, encircled by golden stars, a blue ribbon curves under four golden letters that read: H-O-P-E. It’s most likely taken from the verse in the New Testament that reads “hope we have as an anchor of the soul.” That’s where our guest today gets his name.

Jon Hope is a rapper, writer and public speaker whose life growing up as a child of African immigrants in Providence has made him see the best and worst the city has to offer. His latest album “Hope All Is Well” is streaming now. Jon Hope, Thanks so much for being here.

JON HOPE: Yo, thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

ANA: Cool.

ANA: I just want to talk about your latest album first: “Hope all is Well.” like, when did you start working on it? And what was the plan for it? And how do you think it came out? How's the response to it right now?

JON HOPE: Sure, so, I started probably, like, late 2019. Right, a couple few months before the pandemic. And I had probably a different version of it. I had recorded some records, but I didn't quite find a direction just yet and then once the pandemic hit, as a creative, as an entrepreneur, you know, many of us had to pivot. I think, with all the things that were happening in terms of the social unrest, just the angst that people had centered around this pandemic, it just gave me some fodder, to kind of re examine, you know, self examine what I was going through and whatnot and so for me, “Hope all is well”, we hear that we hear that phrase a lot. And it's usually tends to be like tongue in cheek, you know, what I mean? “Oh, hope all is well,” you say it in an email or what have you. But I looked at it as the phrase as an opportunity for me to, for me to reflect. So in other words, when someone says, “Hope all is well,” I'm examining “is all well, in my life?” You know what I mean? And so once I opened up that Pandora's box, this is what you get, you get the end result of, you know, nine records that really examine and sort of leave behind a lot of things, you know, prior to hope all as well, a lot of my music, a lot of my visual content was rooted in my neighborhood where I come from, which is Arbor Glen. It's on the north end, in the Wanskuck area. I examine why I have such a strong connection, in “Hope all is Well,” the cover is in the basketball court in AG. I had to let that go. So it's a departure, it's a departure because, you know, I had identified my trauma, I had identified all these things that I was going through, and now it's time to let go. So it's kind of like a departure towards bigger and better, you know, what I mean. As far as how it's been received, it's been amazing. By far, you know, my most well-received project. It's definitely aligned. I have put out projects before where I might have been, it might have been critically received well, but the numbers didn't add up. I didn't have all the streams, I didn't have the views and all this other stuff, all that non, that nonsense, the bullshit that I really don't care about. But now I got all that stuff. You know what I'm saying?[end cut] And I'm, you know, there's a spotlight on me and I'm excited. And you know, I got the baton and I'm running.

MUSIC: BLUEST MOON :29

ANA: I love that hook, who’s singing that hook?

JON HOPE: That's my brother rags man, super talented artist right here out of Rhode Island. And he's the MVP man. He delivered in a way I mean, that you can't…

ANA: The tone!

JON HOPE: The tone, it’s infectious. It’s instant. That’s one of the things I love about that record, you know that it doesn't take a long time to hit and you're... You know, you're rightly connected, you know, so.

ANA: And I love the video for it.

JON HOPE: Thank you.

ANA: Yeah, it’s so beautiful. And the part about it that I love is obviously the photos of your family that are in it. Yeah. And the first photo, I think is your mom, in the red?

JON HOPE: In the red! Yeah, killin’ it!

ANA: A queen! I want to talk about that, like your connection with your family a little bit. So are both your parents from West Africa?

JON HOPE: Yeah. So my father is from Liberia. He's still in Liberia. We don't really have a relationship. He wasn't really around or present rather. My mom, she's from neighboring Sierra Leone. And so my mom, she came to this country, raising myself and I have a brother and a sister. And they have - They have the same father. They have their own father. He unfortunately passed. He's in that picture, too. And he's from Nigeria. So I always tell people, I'm all three, because he was actually present. So there were times I would call him Daddy, you know what I'm saying? and whatnot. So yeah, I had like a real colorful, you know, I share it in my music, but I had a colorful upbringing and whatnot. So my relationship with my family, we are -. I was, I mean, what is normal? Right?

ANA: There is no normal. It’s all relative.

JON HOPE: That’s the best way… Yeah, but me and my mom, you know, she had me young. So we have like, a very close relationship. “Friend-like,” you know, um, you know, it's funny, like, you know, when I was growing up, and I would, you know, I would curse, you know, I'm saying I was swear, and a lot of people thought it was from rap music. But it was from my mom. My mom is just like this God-fearing woman, but at the same time will tell you “Yo, clean your shit up.” You know what I mean? So my mom is just, she has that duality that I love.

ANA: So with your mom being from Sierra Leone

JON HOPE: Sierra Leone, Freetown.

ANA: So how did that like growing up with a mother from Sierra Leone, stepfather from Nigeria? What like, Did you feel African? Did you feel like Black, African American? How did you think about yourself?

JON HOPE: That's a great question. Early on, there was a lot of self hatred, you know, that I had, you know, because in the household, my mom, even to this day, she does not, you know, really what we're talking about is the diaspora, right? She does not identify as Black American, like, she would always say, you know, “Don't don't hit me with this shit, I'm African,” you know, don't you know that, you know, we're not doing that, you know, I'm saying your friends, they do that they, you know, what I mean, I was born here, right, born in Providence, but inside the household, it was very much African, you know, Afrocentric type of household and rhetoric and themes and things of that nature. The dichotomy, though, when I would go outside, you know, and jump off the porch, you got to think about the climate. This is 80s 90s, where we're still just as a people, as a culture, as a society, you know, blackness isn't appreciated, right? Particularly specifically, different hues, right, like dark skinned people. And then just the relationship with Africa. I don't know how old you are, but you know, I'm from the era of the Sally Field commercials, you know, I'm saying, like, you know, there be these infomercials and Sally Field will be next to, like, a young African kid with a fly on his nose. And, you know, “If you have a dollar for Unfufu,” you know, “dial…” You know what I'm saying? So, like, the imagery, the representation was very desolate. You know, so all that stuff plays into your psyche. And so how did that manifest in my Black American friends, you know, making fun of me and just, you know, what we would do crack on each other, you know what I'm saying, you know, “African booty scratcher, tar baby,” all that type of shit. So I would get that. And then, even when I would come to school, and I would bring, my African dishes, I would eat in the corner because, like, if I open up that Tupperware, my black and white friends, you know, “what's that? What's that green stuff?” it would be cassava leaf, you know, I'm saying, and I would get asked those questions. And so a lot of it, you know, that played in how I saw myself. And that really lasted for a very long time. You know, my middle name is Mondubu, Mondubu, right? But for the longest, I would tell people My name is Michael, just on some, you know, ignorant self hate type shit, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, it took me a long time, probably until, you know, late 20s. When I was 30 that I really embraced. I had put out a mixtape called Mondubu, you know, and it was really a symbol of like me embracing my fullest self and not having to compartmentalize and things of that nature, because I would get also those micro- aggressive or like backhanded compliments, “like yo Hope you're not you're not like those other Africans, you know, you speak English or like you, you know, you clean,” or whatever trope or aesthetic that they assigned Africans. Because I didn't have that or I didn't have this thick accent like Dikembe Mutombo.

ANA: And this is other Black friends?

JON HOPE: Other Black friends, that was the irony like I would get that sort of prejudicial treatment from my Black American friends, you know what I'm saying? And then I would participate in that by just essentially disowning my African, you know, culture, you know what I mean? And it manifested -- One time, you know, my mother, we were trying to go back to Africa, I was like 10 years old or 11. We went back to Africa. We were attempting to go to Liberia. But however, we ended up going to Senegal, to Dakar. And so I was there for about two weeks. And I hated it. Because I was so Americanized, I didn't even want to eat the food, I would have to tell my mother, I was crying. I was like, Mommy, I want Burger King. So the people there and I, you know, I feel so bad now. I'm much more, you know, sophisticated. They would have to go into the village and go into the city and go get me Burger King. So like, it would be things like that or like, you know, even the cultural like, conflict, like, out there when you eat -- when you participate in dinner. So it'd be like, you know, the three of us, there'd be a huge bowl of rice and different meats. And you would wash your hands. And you would eat like this, you would put your hand and make the rice into a ball and eat. You know, I'm looking, I'm like, Yo, what the fuck is that?

ANA: Where are the forks?

JON HOPE: Where the forks at? We ain’t doing this, right. You know, I mean, I'm 10 years old. I'm like, Nah, you know what I mean? Because I was so, really, it’s white supremacy. You know what I'm saying, that's the overarching thing. But like, I'm over here, like, just self defeating, you know what I'm saying? So, like, that's how it really manifested in like, you know, that really prompted the record African boy on my album. Yeah, I held on to that record for 10 years. That's a 10 year old record.

ANA: Really?

JON HOPE: Yeah, I wrote that in like 2009.

ANA: I love that track, can we listen to that right now?

MUSIC: AFRICAN BOY :28

ANA: I want to talk about your name. Okay, so Jon Hope: Stage name.

JON HOPE: Correct.

ANA: Legal name - different.

JON HOPE: Yeah.

ANA: Okay. Yeah, I want to know how you got to Jon Hope and then I feel like I don't even know what your actual -- because you say let your last names long. your middle name is? What is it again? Mondubu. Yeah. What is your full given name?

JON HOPE: My full birth name is Harrison Mondubu Grigsby. But when I talk about that line, you know, “My last name long.” I'm really speaking about you know, my brother and my sister. My brother, my sister. They're Nigerian. So remember that. They they go by Kevin and Mimi, right. That's what my mother named them but their full name is Olu Femi Kevin Menawonu, Olu Funmi Fumi Menawonu. A lot of people didn't want to pronounce that, right? “Your last name long.” You know what I mean? And you just think about how ignorant that statement is, right? If we could say Beethoven, we could say, you know, tortellini…

ANA: Tchaikovsky.

JON HOPE: Tchaikovsky, right? Yeah, you stop at this, you know what I'm saying? Um, but yeah, so that's my full government name is Harrison Mondubu Grigsby. People, you know, growing up, people would just call me Harry or Harry G. You know what I mean? I was always intrigued. I've always been a multi-passion, multi-talented individual. So I always looked at like Ice Cube, Queen Latifah, Will Smith Tupac, those guys and girls who can exist in multiple mediums. And obviously we see how successful they are. Particularly acting and rapping. Right? So I was like, “Yo, I want a name that can live in multiple mediums without me having to change my name,” you know what I'm saying? Like, like, we don't really call Will Smith, The Fresh Prince anymore. You know what I'm saying, right, you know what I mean. So I'm looking and I'm studying. And I'm like, alright, “Hope” is the state motto for Rhode Island. And at this time, it wasn't really cool to rep Rhode Island. You know what I mean? Because we're in the shadow of New York, right? We're in between New York and Boston. They have, you know, a rich history of hip hop. Rhode Island is sort of non existent. So, the mentality when I first started coming out, was like, I gotta rep Rhode Island, like, I kind of was wearing it with a shield. You know what I mean? So I wanted to, but I didn't want to do anything corny, and be like, Rhode Island, man, you know what I'm saying? Like on some lame shit, right?

ANA: I’m so glad, I’m a little sad you’re not, but I’m glad - it has more longevity.

JON HOPE: Exactly. So I wanted to make something that could be received worldwide, but have a connotation that people can recognize. It really didn't have anything to do with like the Jon Hope settlement house or anything like that. I know, that's really the easy thing to do or say, but it really didn't. I just wanted something like I was like, okay, Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Jamie Foxx, those are all fake actor names. I'm gonna be Jon hope like, you know, and it rings, two syllables, I'm like, word let's do that, you know, I'm saying. So that's kind of how I arrived at it. Jon Hope, you know what I’m saying.

ANA: Cool, can we play THS right now. I want to listen to THS.

JON HOPE: I like the song selection!

ANA: Only the best.

JON HOPE: That’s it.

MUSIC: THS :25

ANA: We talked a little bit about like, at the beginning, about the past year and kind of the civil unrest last year and the murder of George Floyd and, and protests in the street. How did you experience that time? Like, because I know, it's really easy to just assume everybody was doing the same things. Or like, I don't know. But yeah, like, how did you and how are you still dealing with that time?

JON HOPE: Yeah. I mean, you know, it was unfortunate, obviously, I mean, that that to me, I would liken that to, you know, it was a modern day lynching. You know, like... that was that was a murder, like, in front of our eyes. Right. Um, how I received it. I mean, I hurt, you know, I was I definitely had a moment of, you know, reflection and grievance like, Man, this, this, just disdain for the country's inability to live up to its principles, you know what I'm saying? And then there's, like, the residual effect of, seemingly, there's this awakening and, you know, the protests and, all this stuff. And, you know, for me, a lot of it was performative. This isn't the first time we've seen this, you know, so why does it have to take this for all of a sudden for institutions, corporations to put out statements, hashtags about diversity and inclusion and all this stuff? So, it was … and here we are a year later and, you know, some of these things -- I still feel like it's performative. I still feel like a lot of it is like window dressing, you know, to a degree. Has it fostered conversations? Yeah. You know, but in terms of like, real legitimate actionable items of change and things of that nature? I don't know. You know, we still have this still a resistance that we see that permeates right? Just take for instance, you know, “Stop Asian Hate” - right? The reception -- you didn't hear, you know, “Stop all hate.” You know what I'm saying, right? You didn't hear none of that shit, right. There was no like, resistance towards it. It was a uniform acceptance of “Yes. Agreed. Stop Asian hate.” We're not telling you to stop anything. We're just saying: we matter. A Black life matters. Like the sentiment and the way has been co-opted to the degree and just manipulated and recalibrated for people's agenda to again, create this divide and this like fearmongering, We're just saying we matter, that's simply what it you know what I mean? 911 happens - never forget. Slavery - Oh, that was in the past. 400 years, like, you know what I'm saying? It's just the contradiction that exists, is just, you know, it's so blatant. And so, you know, I had my I had my issue, I was, from my first interaction, you know, I was beat by police at 12 years old, like, you know, me and my cousins. Right. And I don't know, you know, for me, it's less about those extremes. And how -- what about the daily things, right? Like in our education, the way that you know, young Black and brown kids, especially girls are adultified, right? They are adultified, which leads to increased suspensions, disproportionate expelling, disproportionate criminalizing, right? I mean, we're seeing like five year old young black kids getting arrested for age-appropriate behavior. So those are the things because that's all connected to the George Floyd situation, right? It's all connected. There's that -- housing. Just so many different things. So for me, it's just like, you know, even now, when we talk about CRT, right, you know.

ANA: Critical Race Theory.

JON HOPE: Like that in itself. Like, so you could teach us, you know, Thanksgiving, and this guy named Chris founded something... “discovered,” right, you know, what I mean? But for us telling the truth, which, in turn will better shape the mindset of these future lawyers, future, you know, these are our students. This is the future. Part of that self hate that we talked about with my relationship with Africa, was because the first time you taught me about myself, I was a slave, right? Not knowing that I was this king. And that I had this rich history. Right? And only time I learned about myself was for 28 days. And it was Martin and Malcolm and Harriet. You know what I’m saying? Yeah, that was it, just three folks, that was it, you know what I'm saying? All dead. All come from deficiency. None of the teachings about myself are strength-based. It’s all deficit based, right. civil rights, you know, slavery, overcoming.

ANA: Be a martyr.

JON HOPE: Right, you know what I mean? Warranted, but like, what about some strength based… there's so many other things that, you know, that can really shape the way not only that, I see myself, but I think what people fail to realize about racism, and, implicit bias and not even implicit bias, but, deliberate bias and explicit and intentional discrimination, is that you rob, like, white people are robbed of the opportunity to learn, too, right? You know what I mean? To learn and have this healthy exchange, right? If we're only learning through this white Eurocentric prism, you rob even white people of the opportunity to learn -- you know what I mean? Because then you give them, they think that they invented air like, and like, you know what I mean?

ANA: Yes. Is that... is all what you're saying. Is that part of why you started the Hope Scholars Initiative?

JON HOPE: Yes, it's part of it. For me, it's a little bit more nuanced. But there's still some correlation. For me it was about the hip hop identity, the hip hop sensibility.

ANA: How would you define a hip hop sensibility?

JON HOPE: Hip Hop sensibility is just the way you talk, the fashion, the dress, the aesthetic. When they come into the schools right. And there's nobody in the schools. They don't really have an understanding. Their rules and regulations and policies ostracize and disenfranchise before we even get to homeroom. Right. So your dress code. Like, there are students, young girls who have micro braids, right, like Janet Jackson in Poetic Justice. Like, that's beautiful, right? They were expelled because of -- not because of behavior matters, not because they have inadequate academic performance, but because of their existence. Right, because of their existence. So when you have that happening before anything else, that is an issue, that's a problem that leads to, you know, low retention rates, you know, withdrawals, you know what I mean? And then I'm not as connected to my scholarship, right? I'm not as connected to wanting to learn, like, I'm like, man, if you don't care about me, like, I don't want to be here, you know what I'm saying? I say all that to say that's what prompted Hope Scholars Initiative, which is to create programming, events, and just overall a space where students can learn and be themselves and where their hip hop cultural identity is validated and affirmed. You know what I mean? Because once you do that, now, you're more connected to your scholarship. Now I'm, like, willing to learn. Language isn't a barrier. My culture isn't a barrier, dress isn't a barrier, because me as a facilitator, as the instructor, I understand, appreciate your Tupac shirt. You know, wearing a bandana, I know, you're not in a gang. You know, I'm saying. you got the hoop earrings. That's what's up. With me, respectability politics are out the window. So like, I don't care if you got a PhD or not, right. Like, that's the beauty of hip-hop education. It’s like, you know, because in academia, there's all these elitists, it's all about how many letters you have after your name, that determines your value, whereas hip-hop ed, we remove that, and it's much more asset-based, community-based. So we value, you know, the barber shop, that is like a pillar in the community, we know there's value there. We know there’s entrepreneurship there, right? You know what I mean? And, more times than not, they're not, they don't have degrees, or none of that shit, you know what I'm saying? To me, that's the beauty because now we de-class, and remove the elitist tone of Black Excellence. Because a lot of times people want to ascribe Black excellence to like Oprah, Obama, you know, this classist shit. Which they are. But what ends up happening is as a default, you know, they're not -- you don't see Obama every day, right? You know, like, Black Excellence is my mom. Right? Black excellence - you get what I’m saying. Yeah,

ANA: It’s the same thing that you were saying about, like Black History Month only focusing on these big larger than life, like tragic figures who led thousands to freedom, or it's like, how does that apply to an 11 year old?

JON HOPE: Correct.

ANA: And, yeah, I think you're entirely on point. It's very interesting to think about reframing it. It's like, what is an attainable way to like, empower young Black kids or older Black people, all of… everybody?

JON HOPE: All of us, yeah.

MUSIC: Dirty Wings (underscore)

ANA: Is there anything, any tracks that you want to play, like any records that you want to play that you would think are -- have a special significance to you?

JON HOPE: You know, one of the songs that's like, a people's favorite that I always appreciated, was “Dirty Wings”, off Savage Beauty. Because it really encapsulates, like, my childhood and this like – a lot of my songs are reflective. I won't even say it lightly, I'm processing. But, I appreciate just the way people connect to that record. And so I talked about like, just like, being the kid in the classroom. Because I went to a white school, you know, I went to an all-white school growing up, like, you know, Catholic school, so I was always the only Black kid.

ANA: Is that your mom stressing education again? Making sure you went to that private school?

JON HOPE: Exactly. but not knowing the effects, you know, because she's coming to this country, like, under this gaze in this, you know, rose colored, “white is right,” you know, type of thing, you know what I'm saying. So, she put me in this school. And you know, there was a lot of, again those like, micro-aggressive moments that I would endure, that would chip away at my identity. So, you know, “Dirty Wings” really talks about that, you know what I’m saying?

MUSIC: Dirty Wings - fade up

ANA: Jon Hope, thank you so much for being on Mosaic today.

JON HOPE: Yo, thank you, this has been good. Great conversation.

ANA: That was my conversation with musician and educator, Jon Hope. To learn more about Jon Hope and hear his music, visit our website, mosaicpodcast.org.

Mosaic is a production of the Public’s Radio. Edited by Sally Eisele. Produced by James Baumgartner and Pearl Marvell. Our theme music is by Bryn Bliska. Website support by Jeff Matteis. Torey Malatia is the general manager of the Public’s Radio. I’m Ana González. Thanks for listening, see you next week!

Support for this podcast comes from the Carnegie Corporation of New York, supporting innovations in democratic engagement and the advancement of international peace and security at carnegie.org

Episode
Highlights

HOPE ALL IS WELL (2021)

“It’s a departure because I had identified my trauma. I had identified all these things that I was going through, and now it’s time to let go.”
—JON HOPE

african and black

“My mom, even to this day, she does not… identify as Black American. She would always say, ‘Don’t don’t hit me with this shit. I’m African.'”
—JON HOPE

“The representation was very desolate. You know, so all that stuff plays into your psyche. And so how did that manifest in my Black American friends, you know, making fun of me and just, you know, what we would do crack on each other, you know what I’m saying, you know, ‘African booty scratcher, tar baby.'”
—JON HOPE

“My middle name is Mondubu… But for the longest, I would tell people my name is Michael. Just on some ignorant self-hate type shit.”
—JON HOPE

“We ended up going to Senegal, to Dakar. And so I was there for about two weeks, and I hated it. Because I was so Americanized, I didn’t even want to eat the food.”
—JON HOPE

2020 CIVIL UNREST

“Seemingly, there’s this awakening and, you know, the protests and all this stuff. For me, a lot of it was performative. This isn’t the first time we’ve seen this. So, why does it have to take this for all of a sudden for institutions, corporations to put out statements, hashtags about diversity and inclusion and all this stuff?”
—JON HOPE

“We’re not telling you to stop anything. We’re just saying: we matter. A Black life matters.”
—JON HOPE

TRUTH TELLING THROUGH EDUCATION

“Part of that self hate that we talked about with my relationship with Africa, was because the first time you taught me about myself, I was a slave, right? Not knowing that I was this king. And that I had this rich history. And the only time I learned about myself was for 28 days. And it was Martin and Malcolm and Harriet.”
—JON HOPE

“If we’re only learning through this white Eurocentric prism, you rob even white people of the opportunity to learn — you know what I mean? Because then you give them, they think that they invented air.”
—JON HOPE

HOPE SCHOLARS INITIATIVE

“That’s what prompted Hope Scholars Initiative, which is to create programming, events, and just overall a space where students can learn and be themselves and where their hip hop cultural identity is validated and affirmed. You know what I mean? Because once you do that, now, you’re more connected to your scholarship. Now I’m, like, willing to learn.”
—JON HOPE

BLACK EXCELLENCE

“Because a lot of times people want to ascribe Black excellence to like Oprah, Obama, you know, this classist shit. Which they are. But what ends up happening is as a default, you know, they’re not – you don’t see Obama every day, right? You know, like, Black Excellence is my mom.”
—JON HOPE

Keep up to date with everything Mosaic

Follow Mosaic on Instagram