ANA: Hey everyone, it’s Ana González. This is Mosaic. We try not to make this show about politics or the legal side of immigration to focus on the human stories. But, at the end of the day, the process of immigrating is shaped by the law. And that creates this relationship where immigration law can gt people in trouble – right, like if you’re undocumented or underducomented and break a law, that gets tricky. But immigraiton can also provide a way out of abusive domestic situations. That gets messy. In comes Gloria Greenfield.

Gloria is the Senior Director of Programs at Sojourner House, which is a nonprofit that offers services for victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, and human trafficking. Gloria runs their immigration program, the only one of its kind in a domestic violence center in Rhode Island. Our conversation gets into tough intersections of immigration and domestic violence and helps me understand immigration law in a totally new way.

ANA: Gloria, welcome to Mosaic.

GLORIA: Thank you so much. Glad to be here.

ANA: Good to have you. Well, first, I want to just ask: How would you define domestic violence, sexual assault and human trafficking because I think those definitions people might not all have the same understanding of them.

GLORIA: Yes, I feel like all of them have something in common and is the power and control. So when someone is able to exercise power and control over someone else, he may escalate to sometimes domestic violence, might escalate to sexual abuse. It’s not just, sexual abuse is not what you see in the movies, like someone jumped out of the park and raped somebody. Obviously, that is sexual assault. But that also happens in domestic situations, in interpersonal relationships. And human trafficking has similar behaviors and factors but is always outcome that is wanted from that person, whether it's commercial sex, or where there is labor trafficking, which can be servitude, it can be, like modern-day slavery. So, we are able to help not only victims that are trafficked for sex, but also traffic for labor. And that's something that we see a lot in the immigrant community. That's why we decided to create this program. Because these victims were helpless, they were not able to get any assistance. And fortunately, they are immigration benefits for victims of human trafficking. But a lot of people don't even recognize that they're being trafficked.

ANA: Yeah, is there maybe a case or like that you could talk about, though, that exemplify a situation that is the intersection of immigration and human trafficking where the person doesn't even realize they were being trafficked?

GLORIA: I can give you many examples. But usually, that story begins by someone offering something to someone in their country, or even here, say, “Hey, come live with me. Work with me. I'm going to give you a roof over your head. I'm going to pay you for your work, and I'm going to send you to school.” Whatever it might be. And then that person believes they are being invited to a better life, they take that opportunity. And when they arrive either to the United States or to that person's home or the person's workplace, they realize that it’s not what they thought. So usually the dynamic involves the trafficker knowing that the person is undocumented or under documented and then using that against them. Like, “If you don't do this, I'm gonna call ICE. If you don't do this, I'm gonna get you deported. Or I'm not going to bring you to court, or I'm not going to find a lawyer for you.” And then, you know, it just escalates.

And the fear of deportation stops people in the tracks. A lot of people want to leave those situations, but the fear of deportation, just it's impossible for them to make the decision. Especially if they owe money to the coyote that brought them here. Or if they have family in their countries that they know if they escape, they might retaliate against family members. Or they simply have nowhere to go. A lot of people don't have money to buy a plane ticket and they would have to basically present themselves to Immigration and Customs Enforcement and say “I'm here! Deport me!”

We have also had cases where the women have been invited here by someone they met online or through a friend. They’re brought here with a fiance visa. And then when they get here, the fiance doesn't marry them, because they know they have 90 days to get married. I don't know if you've seen the show 90-Day Fiance, but that's what they need to do. And if they don't get married, they're violating the terms of their visa and they immediately become overstayed. They overstay, so they're out of status, and then fiance that should have been there. spouse, they either put them to work in their business with no pay, and they have to tend to them, serve them, or they just keep them trapped in the house. And the whole purpose was to bring them here to be the in-house maid. Those victims never presented themselves, “I'm a victim of human trafficking.” They usually come because there were victims of domestic violence. And when we dig into their story and it’s like, “Wait a minute, this meet all the elements of human trafficking.”

ANA: Yeah, so it's like someone comes in, because the obvious bad thing. Like they get hit or an arm is broken, right? Or something terrible happens. It's really immediate and acute. And then you're like, “But how did you get into that situation in the first place?” And you're like, this is –

GLORIA: Yes, yeah. And probably, if we didn't have the immigration program that we have, they would have gone to any domestic violence agency. They would have gotten the services. They would have got out. But nobody was going to identify them as victims of human trafficking. And they would have missed out on getting legal status. Because, for instance, those fiance that never married, if you're not married, you have no protection. So by by us discovering the backstory, and we're like, wait a minute, you are a victim of human trafficking, and then applying for that benefit. We open a whole world of opportunities for them, because once they get granted, they're considered refugees. And they can get any kind of federal benefits that are out there.

ANA: And so back up a little bit. When you first started working with Sojourner House, this program didn't exist, right?

GLORIA: It didn’t. So before coming to Sojourner House, I was a paralegal for an immigration lawyer. And I learned a lot about immigration law. And I learned a lot of our cases are always victims of violence against women act. So when I came to Sojourner House, most of the victims that I worked with were undocumented, and I knew they had a chance to get legal status and to get a work permit. And I felt frustrated, because I knew that would have to go to a lawyer and a lawyer would charge 5000 7000 $10,000 for a case like that. And I was like, “I know how to do this, why can’t I do it?” So I knew that there was a way to create an immigration program without me having to be an attorney, which is a very interesting concept. When explained this is like, mind blown, like people's like, “How do you do that?” So to give you a quick explanation for criminal cases, if you don't have an attorney, and you can afford one, the state have to give you one, it's not the same for immigration cases. If you cannot afford one, too bad for you, you can represent yourself. So the Department of Justice allows nonprofit organizations to create immigration programs at a very low rate compared to what a private attorney would charge. And then they have to have staff either an immigration attorney or an attorney, or they have to have staff that can demonstrate the knowledge and experience to prepare these cases. So it took me about three years to prove to the Department of Justice that I had the knowledge and experience to become an accredited representative. So they approved me in 2015, partially, and then in 2018, I applied to become fully-accredited because I went to trainings on trial advocacy, and I learned how to litigate and things like that. It's kind of interesting, because I'm not a lawyer. And I needed to know how to present a case in front of a judge and in front of the trial attorney. So it was really scary the first time I did it. I didn't sleep for like a week. I was crying every night. What if I fail? What if I just break down and I can’t do this anymore. But it was successful. And I felt like I faked it until I made it and totally did. Yes, it was amazing. And I have been representing clients in court since 2018.

ANA: Can you tell me about that first case that you took to trial like without whatever legally, you can like, what what was at stake basically, like what What kept you up at night? How complicated was it?

GLORIA: Yes, it was complicated because this victim was married to her abuser, but her abuser was also undocumented. But she had two United States citizen children. And those children suffer extremely from the abuse like psychologically, emotionally, even physically. They they got physically ill and they had a lot of medical issues. So I had to demonstrate in court that this children would suffer x and this is the words they use extreme unusual hardship if their mother is deported, because if she is deported, then they would have to go with her to her home country where they will not get the services that they get here. They will not get that kind of education. They will not get the medical services. I mean, this children had to see a doctor every two, three months. And if you send them to a Latin American country where you need to pay out of pocket every single expense, those children's were doomed to die, basically. So that case, I probably overdid it only because it was my first one. And I wanted to make sure I cover all my bases. But I think that case had about 150 pages of evidence. I wrote out 45 page brief and probably the judge was like, Okay, I get the point. But I feel I felt like I had to do it, because I did not want to take the risk of me not doing it. Certainly not being an attorney. I'm like, I feel like I have to prove myself even more. But it was successful. And it was, it was amazing. I think the hearing took about two hours. And I, you know, practice my cross examination and my direct examination for like a week and I torture that poor client, like five times, like, asking the questions, because I needed to make sure she was gonna be a good witness in the stand. It's not like in criminal in criminal cases. It's like you can choose not to take the stand. I mean, immigration, you can but if you don't take the stand, probably you're going to get denied because they need to hear from you. And ever since now, I walk into court like this.

ANA: How long do you briefs now? Are they 45 pages still?

GLORIA: Oh, no, I tried to make them a little bit shorter. More like to the point. Yes. But it's kind of cool to go to court and hear like the attorney for the government call me counsel and the judge call me counselor.

MUSIC

ANA: If you’re just joining us, I’m Ana González, and this is Mosaic. You’re listening to my conversation with Gloria Greenfield, the founding director of the immigraiton program at Sojourner House, a center for victims of domestic violence, sexual assault and human trafficking. I asked her to describe some of the different types of cases she sees coming to Sojourner House.

GLORIA: I can probably talk to you about the most typical case, which is the undocumented victim married to a US citizen. So um, you know, if someone like that comes in, they can either come directly because of the immigration program, and they might come because they came to the shelter first. But when that happens, then, you know, we have to do an intake, it has to be thorough, we need to know how they came to the country that we need to know about. Have you ever been arrested? Did you bring your children over the border? Did you ever apply for a visa? Did you ever say you were a US citizen? So there's so many things that can hinder someone's case that we need to know in order for us to say “Yes, this is a case that is viable,” usually they need to prove that they were married in good faith, meaning you didn't marry this person because you want papers. You marry them because you love them and then abuse happened. And then we need to get evidence about the abuse. So that can be tricky, because not everybody calls the police. Not everybody goes to the hospital. So if it's emotional, mental abuse, it's hard to prove. So we have to rely on the client story. And that's when they have to come in and tell us every single detail about their story. And it can be hard for some people to do that kind of job because you are digging and needling. It's like “Tell me more. Tell me more. How did you feel and what happened?” So it can be really retraumatizing, but it’s the only way we can prove the case because we need to know the details. I feel like the details is what's going to make the difference between a case that is granted and a case that's denied. And, you know, we file the case and in about four to six months, they get a work permit, and then they just wait. And then the wait game starts. It's about two years before the self petition gets approved or denied depending. Hopefully approved, most of our cases are approved. And then they wait for the Green Card interview, which it's probably six months after their case gets approved. So all in all, it takes about three years, from the moment they come to the moment they are approved.

ANA: That's incredible. I think people don't realize when we talk about pathways to citizenship, right, like immigration reform, that a pathway to citizenship right now, it takes minimum three years. And it requires them to learn English and take a test and pay 1000s of dollars. Yeah. And and, and it requires people like you to work around the clock.

GLORIA: Yes. And I encourage my clients to learn English. I started learning English at 25. Yeah. And I'm like, if I could do it, you could do, you can do it.

ANA: I speak Spanish but like whenever I do it. Big kudos. What was your reason for leaving Venezuela to begin with?

GLORIA: Well, I don't know if you're familiar with what's going on in Venezuela. But when we came in 2001, the then president Hugo Chavez, had been in power for about four years. And we saw the writing on the wall. It was becoming very dangerous. We got robbed so many times our house broken into. There was there was no way of life and my family, my family from my mom's I had been in the US for many, many years in Rhode Island out of all places. I wrote. I don't know that's why they came and people ask them why Rhode Island? I don't know. That's where my friend was like that. I think that's how people immigrate like you go where you have some support network. And once we came here we stay I mean, yeah, I guess the point we came, it's because we knew there was no future. And I'm fortunate and I took the opportunity. And I feel like it is my duty to to give that back to the people I work with the clients I work with. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about immigration, because I know I know what it is to feel afraid. I know what it is not to have a social security, no work, no driver's license, it's just it's just, it's really hard.

ANA: So what was your legal immigration process? Was it as complicated or as confusing as some other cases?

GLORIA: I mean, it was complicated, but I had a good attorney, the one that I worked for. Yeah, it was complicated. Definitely not as complicated as many people because we never crossed the border. We never you know, we came on a visa and you know, we didn't have to pay a coyote to come. So definitely, much easier than a lot of people. But I've had friends who crossed the border. I've had friends who struggle; I have friends who almost drowned at the river. So I feel like what makes me different than an immigration lawyer is that I can relate. I'm not saying that attorneys don't. But they're working by billing hours. So it's to the point like, I just need to know what I need to know.” If a client needs to take three, four or five sessions to tell me their story, that's okay.

ANA: Yeah, so what is the need? On a yearly basis, how many people are coming into your office asking you for help?

GLORIA: When I started the program in 2012, we had like three clients the first year. And because I wasn't accredited yet, we had an attorney that helped us. So we couldn't take too many cases. But once I became accredited, then I think the first year we had like 14 cases, and then we had 28. Right now we take about 70 new cases a year seven zero cases a year and in about 130 common total, like not everybody that come can get services because they either don't qualify, or there's really nothing we can do. But cases that we go from beginning to end about 70. We have about, I would say 300 open case load. So these are clients that have cases pending, I don't know if you're aware but cases in immigration take Forever, ever. So yeah, so if we have these cases open, and yes, we file them, we put them away and we're just waiting, but these are clients I call every three months. I think about their cases or they need assistance with something else or they need to, you know, reach out to the housing the Prime Minister, we're always engaged with his clients and I mean, our our hours, our numbers are ridiculous. Because of that reason, we keep taking these new cases, but these cases don't close for four or five I have six, seven years. So right now we're handling cases that were filed in 2016. And they're still pending. So they're really never gone until like they become US citizens, basically.

ANA: The law is so complicated, so hard. And like, I'm not technically an immigration reporter, like I tell stories about immigration. But the law comes into play at some point, right? Because it's like, why did you make that decision? What's going on? You know, like, what did your lawyer say? Can I tell that even like in the story, is that okay, if you're still in court and like, and then I have to talk to a lawyer, and then I have to ask the right questions. And it's so complicated.

GLORIA: And just imagine these people, you know, some of them don't pass a sixth grade. Yeah. They don't speak English. Yeah. They just rely on what people say and what their attorneys say, or what their abuser said. So it's so hard to navigate the system.

ANA: Yeah. And because the cases take so long, they could have come here as a child, their parents could have done the, the all the paperwork. And who knows what they were doing. At that time, the parents no longer around, they're trying to figure out this whole mess. And yeah, I know what you're saying about complicated. I don't think people know how complicated this can be. How has this increase of your caseload? Right, because it went from like three to 14 to 70 a year is that just because you have the capacity now and you're accredited? Or is it also kind of reflecting a larger trend in immigration?

GLORIA: A combination of both. I'm not the only one working the program, actually, because of my new role. I'm stepping away a little bit from it, and only taking court cases. But we have a partially accredited representative. She's the manager of that program now. And we have someone that is working towards becoming accredited. So she's doing a lot of the paralegal work. But before that person came on board, it was just me and this other person, or Nell, and the two of us would take the cases. But this was a difference. When we started the program, I would take a case within two three weeks it was filed. Now we take a case and it might take two, three, four months, because we are over capacity. So it's like a first come first serve basis. And, and it's also like, what's more urgent? So if he's someone that is under a deadline, we have to do that first. So we try to prioritize. But we don't have a waitlist. That’s the difference. We take every case, but we tell people, you know, it might take a little while. But we're gonna get it filed. We give priority to U visas, obviously, because those take forever.

ANA: What is a U visa?

GLORIA: Yeah, a U visa is a special non immigrant visa for victims of crime. So that visa is very helpful for people who are victims of domestic violence. The police was involved, but the abuser is not a US citizen, or they were not married to that person. So they're able to qualify for this non immigrant visa.

ANA: What does it mean to be a non-immigrant visa?

GLORIA: So it doesn't give you legal permanent resident with when it gets first approved. But after having it for three years, that person can then apply for legal permanent residence. So it's a really good path to citizenship is a visa that is very forgiving. So people with previous deportation order or even criminal cases, or smuggling charges, or or they smuggle their children to the United States, which is a crime. So this forgives that portion of it. So but those pieces, they only give 10,000 a year, and there's about 300,000 people applying in the country. Yes. Every year, there's about 40,000 applications and not everybody gets approved. So these cases are taking eight to 10 years to get process.

ANA: And during that time, that person is usually undocumented document?

GLORIA: Yeah.

ANA: So that so the increase in in cases is more of a reflection of like, how backlogged the system is?

GLORIA: But also I feel like people know we have this service and in a lot of we have been doing a really good job outreach into the community like clinics and social service agencies and even lawn for we get referrals from the police, like they know they can come to us. We get referrals from the attorney general's office, we get referral from women and infants. And so people know we have this program and they send them to us looking forward.

ANA: What needs to happen to keep this program going and also to make it easier to keep this program going?

GLORIA: Yeah, I mean, I would love to get more money to fund another position maybe so we can eliminate the wait time. I would love to have an actual lawyer join the program so they can help with custody issues and maybe criminal issues. We have the victims of human trafficking that trafficker cut himself. He went to the police. He said that she did it. The police arrested her, she didn't speak English. So they didn't ask a question. They just take her, they just took her. And then they realized she was the victim, but she had already been charged. So she had to pay like $2,000 to a private lawyer to get rid of that charge, before we could even file a case for her. So that's, that's a tactic that an abuser and a trafficker can use, and it is costing her this ridiculous amount of money. But if we have a lawyer is like, “Hey, take care of this case.” You know, I wish we had more support because there’s only so much we can expect from the feds and the state as far as money. But I feel like if the community as a whole comes together and rallies for programs like this, and maybe create little fundraising for that. We have the goal to raise about $50,000 for the immigration program, because otherwise we're gonna have to cut it. And we don't want to do that we have too many people that depend on us. So I feel like we have to hold that either the legal community comes together and be like, okay, let's support this program that, it's helping women, men and children to survive, so we can continue doing the work. I feel like that's the most important thing that we need.

ANA: Gloria Greenfield, thank you so much for being on Mosaic.

GLORIA: Thank you for having me. This was great.

MUSIC

ANA: That was my conversation with Gloria Greenfield from Sojourner House. And now, a community essay. This one is from listener Mark Makuch.

MARK'S ESSAY

ANA: That was Mark Makuch. To learn more about our community essayists and Sojourner House, you can visit our website, mosaicpodcast.org.

Mosaic is a production of The Public’s Radio. Edited by Sally Eisele. Produced by James Baumgartner and Pearl Marvell. Our theme music is by Bryn Bliska. Torey Malatia is the General Manager of The Public’s Radio. I’m Ana González. Thanks for listening, and see you next week!

Support for this program comes from the Carnegie Corporation of New York, supporting innovations in democratic engagement and the advancement of international peace and security at carnegie.org.